Conversation Piece with Patrick Armstrong
The APAHM Conversations Series
Natasha Jung
Patrick Armstrong
Hey everyone! Welcome to Conversation Piece with Patrick Armstrong. I am the titular Patrick and this is the show where my guests and I discuss what piece of the conversation we aren't talking about but should be. Special shout out to all my returning listeners and a high five and hello to everyone joining us for the very first time; thank you so much.
If you're listening to this on release day, it is the last day of May, which is also Asian Pacific American Heritage Month or APAHM. And as part of the celebration here on this show, we've aired nine conversations throughout the month with friends and people that I greatly admire in the community and discuss the missing pieces of the Asian American conversation. And today, I am really excited because I'm bringing you a very special 10th conversation to the series. And we're going to start that right now.
My guest today is a multidisciplinary creative community builder and public speaker with a background in marketing, broadcast television, live event production and education. In 2021, she was named a finalist in BC Business Magazine's Women of the Year Awards in the Community Builder category. And in 2019, she delivered a TED talk about navigating cultural expectations in a cup of tea and why she started Cold Tea Collective. It is an honor and a privilege for me to welcome Natasha Jung to the show.
Hey, Natasha, how are you doing today?
Natasha Jung
Hey, Patrick. Happy APAHM! Or as we in Canada call it ‘Asian Heritage Month.’ So slightly different across the board, but ultimately kind of the same spirit of celebrating, recognizing and looking to the future for the Asian diaspora in the country and in the region. And so firstly, I just want to say thank you so much for this wonderful series that you've put together. It's been such a pleasure listening to all the different episodes.
I guess we're kind of like halfway through the season now at the time of recording this. And I gotta say it, like the way that you've chosen your guests, the way that you structured the podcast is, it's just been such a pleasure to listen to you. So thanks for doing all the heavy lifting. I really, really appreciate that.
Patrick Armstrong
Honestly, I can't even say how much I appreciate that. To give listeners a little background. Natasha and I met for the very first time in Vegas for the Asian Hustle Network Uplifted Conference, and we really connected right away. And this was a week before May started. So a week before these conversations were launching and I, for whatever reason, had the audacity to ask, “Hey, do you think there would be any room for us to potentially partner or work together to amplify this series?” [laughs] And despite only having met me 24 hours ago–
Natasha Jung
Not even 24 hours... [laughs]
Patrick Armstrong
Yeah. It was probably like, 12 hours.
Natasha Jung
It was probably about 12 hours.
Patrick Armstrong
Yeah. But Natasha said, let's figure something out. Let's see if this is something that we can do. And incredibly, the alignment was there and Natasha and Cold Tea Collective have stepped in and helped to really spread the message of this series and amplify the show itself. So reciprocating that thanks right back to you for taking a chance on me and this new – very new – show and the series on this concept and helping us spread the word.
Natasha Jung
Absolutely. And yeah, I also have to add a little bit of additional color to that. So we were at, kind of an after hours social event, very chill, very few people in a hotel room. And it was one of those moments where I kind of have to pinch myself sometimes because I know being based in Vancouver, Canada, I'm just like, I, you know, follow all these awesome Asian American creators like on Instagram and all that kind of stuff. And then to actually meet them in person is just kind of mind blowing to me.
It's almost like, “Oh my gosh, like a little celebrity sighting.” And that's kind of how I felt when I saw you. I was just like, “Holy crap, is that Patrick Armstrong? I follow him on LinkedIn.” And I have been following you on LinkedIn and your story, especially in sharing your Korean adoptee experience since 2021. And that's kind of when I started to learn a little bit more about that experience. Still tons more to learn.
And so yeah, it was just a really cool opportunity to I guess I've worked together, the stars aligned and I think really, if I may, what kind of, I guess kind of made this possible? Is that okay, you already do the work and certainly were just, you know, cool. The collective is here to help amplify that. But I think ultimately the message is in just incredible alignment.
So, you know, with that, your very clear description and vision for this podcast series is about finding the pieces of the conversation that are missing and highlighting those things that aren't talked about but should be. And so that is very much what Cold Tea Collective is about. And so this is where I'll kind of go into explaining a little bit more about what we do.
So Cold Tea Collective is a media outlet for, by and about the next generation of the Asian diaspora. We particularly focus on the North American diaspora experience. And so with that, I mean, there's, you know, people often ask me like, “what's what's your name? What does it mean?” Are you like, cold tea, like bubble tea or – that's what I call it in Vancouver, or if I'm in the States, I'll transition to calling it boba – but no, that's that's not it. I mean, sure that too but really, you know, if you think about what's being said either in mainstream media or within different communities, I think there's certainly a role and a place and importance in covering the hot gossip, hot topics, current events, things that are happening in the now.
However, with that, there are other things that are going on across the community that people aren't talking about. So instead of calling it the hot tea, the hot gossip, like what's the cold tea? Right? Like, what are people not talking about but should be? And so I just want to say that there's really just a great alignment there. And I think you've certainly covered a lot of that in your topics covered so far in this podcast series.
Patrick Armstrong
I appreciate you sharing a little bit more of the background for cold tea and I wondered if you could elaborate a little bit more on how you transitioned from or incorporated into your background as a marketer and what you were doing prior to starting to tell these stories and what really pushed you into saying, “Oh yes, this is 100% what I need to be doing.”
Natasha Jung
Yeah, it's interesting. I actually was on another podcast yesterday and so that that host asked me a very – I love the way that you frame this question, and I'm going to use that as my framework to answer yours now – he asked me, “what called you to this?” I think for a lot of my life I had been trying to find my calling, but then I realized now, especially with that, the way that that particular question was framed is that our callings call us, right?
What is calling us as opposed to what we are trying to find meaning in and when it comes down to it, I think it really just it's reflective of the thoughts, experiences and feelings that we have that keep coming up throughout different phases of our lives. For me, my background, as you noted earlier, is in, you know, in marketing, media, PR, education, I've done like a whole bunch of random stuff. But ultimately marketing and media communications has kind of been more of a consistent thread throughout my career.
I started off my career working in very, very corporate marketing. So this is after my university education. I attended Simon Fraser University in Burnaby, British Columbia, Canada. So just outside of Vancouver for those that haven't heard of it. And studied communications there and my first job out of university, I was planning events for another university in the region.
And after that jump to the very corporate marketing B2B space – which I know you come from as well, Patrick – and ended up in a role where I was just like completely unhappy and completely unhappy. It was the first time in my life where I felt or experienced depression. And there are a number of different factors which I can unpack afterwards.
And I do talk about it in the TED talk that I did in 2019. But ultimately I was working in this job because I felt like, okay, I'm X number of years into my career now as a marketer, I need to work my way up, ended up in this job like the highest amount of money that I'd ever receive in any job, You know, prior to that, I guess at that point of my career, job title was fancy.
It was cool. The tech company I got to fly across Canada, the U.S., to do my job. It was pretty cool. But behind that I was you know, I was the first one in the office, the last one out, but never really feeling like I was being productive. There was no light behind my eyes anymore.
No life behind my eyes either. And things were actually really hard for me. Things that used to be really easy for me became really hard. And I remember saying to my boss at that time, like, I actually feel like I'm not as smart as I used to be. Like, my brain isn't working the way that I thought it should or it did previously, and so something was wrong.
Eventually I got to the place where I would find myself crying in the washroom during my lunch breaks, then hiding out in the first aid room, which is essentially a nap room for anyone that's not feeling well. And so I just told myself, “Okay, you know what? Like I'm just going to wait it out for a year because, like, if I try to find another job and they see that I was only at this job for like X number of months is going to look really bad on my resume.”
And of course, these are the kind of concerns that were happening at that time. But then a decision was made for me. I was fired from my job. I was fired because I wasn't performing. I wasn't performing because I was depressed. I was depressed because I wasn't working in line with my values. And now even like six, seven years later, I realize also that actually within the last year I had undiagnosed ADHD for my entire life.
And so that certainly contributed to those challenges in that particular workplace and in that job. And so, you know, you ask like, “how did Cold Tea Collective become a thing?” Instead of me going out there and trying to find some other marketing job, you know, after I'd gotten fired, I decided to take some time for myself and to figure out what I really wanted in life and what I wanted to do as a career.
And, you know, one of the things I kept calling me was the entertainment and media space. And so even before now in high school and as a youth, like even before I started going to university, I was very much into the entertainment arts. I wanted to be a mush music deejay, which is, I guess, the Canadian equivalent to MTV Canada, right out of right out of high school.
I ended up interning at MTV Canada when it was based in Vancouver, my hometown. And yeah, it was great. And I was able to do that because I had experience in producing a singing competition for high school students, like in the district that I went to school in. And so I had that experience of being on stage, performing, hosting, producing live events, live concert productions, that kind of thing.
And so it just made sense to me at that time. But I guess I kind of went too far down that like the corporate marketing PR columns path and I really lost sight of that. And so I decided to take a chance on this teenage dream of mine to see, you know, maybe media, you know, media’s in a very different stage or space at that time.
And I think at that time it was 2016. And so just up just about ten years since I graduated from high school and decided to give a chance for that teenage dream of mine to produce and host. So I ended up interning at a local community TV station, producing and hosting. And one of the events that I covered was a local Asian film festival, Vancouver Asian Film Festival.
A shout out to them – Cold Tea Collective has been a media partner and sponsor for the last number of years, and they do incredible work – and so yeah, look at this, at this event. Like I haven't really thought of too much about my Asian identity other than, you know, being a part of an Asian student club in university. But what I saw on screen at this particular event that I was covering was obviously I wasn't expecting to see it was people that looked like me and actually literally people I knew because it was filmmakers that I knew on a friendship level, sharing these stories, these slice of life stories that really could be any of us.
Right? But in particular, they spoke so much to the nuances of what it meant or what it was like to be an Asian Canadian person at that time. And so I just felt a deeply visceral response that I had never felt before. And I think that was kind of the first time that I felt that sense of connection to myself, my soul, my heart, my feelings throughout that depressive state in my life.
And so it just really meant a lot to me. And I think that really gave me the courage to share my own story about how I went through depression and was still going through trying to figure out my career. And I ended up sharing that in a really long, like Facebook post. People commented on it and DM'd me saying, “Oh my gosh, thank you so much for sharing the story,” etc., etc. And it really just kind of opened up my mind to the power of personal storytelling in particular.
And so what ended up doing is, you know, shared a little bit more about myself, my personal journey, and invited others to do the same. Eventually we created Cold Tea Collective, a website, and we've been running for about six, seven years. I should probably figure out that number [laughs] because I don't have like, you know, the things happen organically.
I don't actually I don't know what the actual founding data is. So, yeah, I mean, since then we've, you know, I mean, it's different now because of more remote work and such, but we've grown a team across Canada and the U.S. for the last number of years. At one point we had about 30 people creating content, writing, volunteering with us.
It was pretty incredible. And we’ve since then scaled down. But, you know, fast forward to kind of where we are today and having this conversation. It was in October where I actually had the opportunity to quit my full time job, but I just went back to, after about a year and a half on maternity leave because we get longer maternity leaves here in Canada.
And I'd only been back for about four and a half, maybe five months. And then just the opportunity came to leave because there's a paid job that Cold Tea Collective was fortunate to be able to do. And that was kind of I just kind of took that as my sign to take the leap and really better myself, bet on this industry and grow something for the community.
Patrick Armstrong
I really appreciate you sharing all of that background and giving that additional context of your journey to not only your own understanding and connection to storytelling, but also kind of how this collective storytelling has come to create Cold Tea and what it is today. I think that, something that's just really incredible to me is the fact that you've been telling these stories for now seven years.
We're going to call it seven, I'm going to give you the extra seven and push it as much as possible. You've been doing this for a while, and I think that's something that I've been talking about a lot recently, is just recognizing people who have been in the spaces of storytelling and who have been doing things like this for longer than the three years that I've been doing it.
I think I've been part of this wave of specifically Asian adoptees who during the pandemic have come out and started to tell their stories, articulate this language and really reclaim that. And sometimes I think it gets lost in the shuffle that, oh, there have been people doing this work for 60, 70, 80 years now who have been who have been talking about this, to lay the foundation for us to be able to do so.
Because you've been doing this for, you know, coming up on a decade and you've been able to uncover a lot of different nuances within this conversation, the North American Asian conversation specifically, you know, that's, I think where the alignment is for the series is, you know, what kind of things are we missing from that, what sort of conversations, what sort of stories or experiences have you uncovered over the last six, seven years that really surprise you as to be like, oh, this is something I had no idea was happening? And now you've been able to kind of bring that to light.
Natasha Jung
Yeah, I mean, great way to sort of bring it back to the theme of, of the podcast. I think you actually hit upon it there. And I was thinking about this in advance. I'm like, “Oh my gosh, Patrick has had so many wonderful guests. I'm like, "What else do I have to add to the conversation?””
But I think, yeah, so a couple of things I was thinking about this year, right? Like there have been, you know, organizations, individuals that have just been sharing their story and creating space for conversations that are often overlooked or underrepresented for a long time now. And so I think beyond that, though, I think what we don't talk about enough is how actually like hard it is to a I mean, to start something and be to sustain it in a way that's not going to be depleting on the individual, on the collective as a team, and also continues to provide value as the community and our capacity to do whatever it is we're doing evolves. And so, you know, I just it's just been an incredible, you know, last few weeks specifically. I say that because I've had the opportunity to meet folks such as yourself at the Asian Hustle Network Conference. I was in L.A. last week and I'll be there again next week for another conference. [laughs] So a lot of travel was crazy.
Like, I mean, talking to people about like, you know, how did you get started? You know, why did you start this thing? And a lot of it comes from, you know, that very personal connection, personal experience to something that's happened, like something pivotal or monumental that's happened in that person's life. And they just ultimately, they're just trying to take control of their own narratives, whether it be through media or social media, building community events, leading some sort of movement.
It is freaking hard, though. I got to tell you, I've talked to so many people like I don't know how I'm going to continue doing this. I'm only one person. I don't know if I can sustain this. I don't know where my next paycheck is coming through. And a lot of people work on these types of ventures or projects off the side of their desks, right?
And so, I mean, I certainly did for a really long time, and I know how fortunate I am to be able to work on it full time. And with that, I can't just be like “Okay, I'm just breaking down.” You know, I have to continue to build pipelines. There's a sales component to it, right?
That people when there's that money side of it too, it's like how do you actually sustain this? But also recognizing that the community needs will evolve as well. Right? So it's really just about being tapped into that and not having an ego about like, oh, things have to be this way because certainly I think a lot of us have probably come across folks in our respective careers, like if you're a listener, like even if you have if you're not even in the media space.
Right. And really just trying to find the people, the organizations, the collaborators that will support you on this journey, even if it is a little bit tangential or kind of adjacent to what you directly are doing, it's freaking hard. So I just got to say, you know, shout out to anybody that has had the courage to to put their heart out there to actually start something.
Starting is one thing, as I said, it's another thing to continue on that path, but also be able to pivot as needed.
Patrick Armstrong
100% like it is freaking hard. Like that's the best way to describe this type of venture.
I'm just recently in the last six months started that same thing to, you know had the privilege fortunate opportunity to kind of step away from my corporate job and to pursue this full time and to build sustainability is it's difficult because something that I feel like I've mentioned in a few of these conversations is, but something I've been talking about, again, another thing that I've been talking about a lot recently is that particularly the adoptee community, but even in the Asian, Asian diasporic community is like there are many models of people who are successful within capitalistic systems who then who then don't exploit or take advantage of the communities that they come from and find ways to not only build sustainable business for themselves and their families, but also to give back and uplift and empower their community like they're not very many models of that.
And I learned that from Jerry Won, watching him operate in the storytelling space and not only build a business that could help sustain him, but also in his family, but also give back to the community, give opportunities to someone like myself who has no idea what they're doing and is trying to find their way in the space and to know that it's not exploitative or transactional in any way.
But it's sort of like it's out of a mindset of abundance. And I think that's another thing we've touched on in these conversations is this mindset of scarcity that a lot of oppressive systems will make us feel, like there's not enough to go around. Like particularly in the media space, it feels like there can only be a CNN or an ESPN or whatever, and even all those companies are probably owned by the same company.
Natasha Jung
It's true [laughs]
Patrick Armstrong
But it's like that makes us feel like there's only so much ground that we can take up when at the end of the day, there's probably literally an infinite amount of space for us. There's more than enough for everyone to do it, but we haven't watched enough people do those things and model that type of behavior for us, I think. I don’t know.
Natasha Jung
You're speaking my language, Patrick. I absolutely agree with that wholeheartedly. And yeah, shout out Jerry Won, I mean, he was so gracious with his time on one of my recent trips a couple of months ago and just kind of seeing what he's been doing to build this community and build up a community of creators.
But also I think he's just got a very clear audience and he knows how to activate them. And with that too, I mean, same like I think ultimately a lot of people that I've met over the last few weeks, over the last few years and has have recently just reconnected with it's that mindset of shifting into this space of abundance and making sure that, yes, like balancing out what will benefit us as individual leaders in our families, like I've of a young family myself, and but also giving back and creating space for other people while not being exploitative.
And so I mean, just a little bit of like the business side of things here for Cold Tea Collective. I mean, ultimately we're a media outlet, right? And so we try to do our best to be able to tell these stories of the diaspora that people should know but might not necessarily hear about. And that's why for me, like in the beginning, I felt so bad not felt bad, but.
But, you know, let's just say a small business wants to promote themselves on Cold Tea. I'll tell them like, ‘Okay, well, this is it because you're a business. We have to like, charge you. These are our rates.” And, you know, I would say 95% of the time I send them my rate and like crickets, like vigorously, which is fair.
And I mean, that being said, like, it's that balance of loss not being in the position to provide that free service or that labor. Right. And so what we've kind of been doing and what my approach is, is to work with the organizer Asians that do have the funding and they do have the resources to be able to support, amplify the work of and uplift and empower.
I know these all sound like very similar words, but they're actually very different if you take a moment to break them down. But those that may just be starting out or those that might not have those resources and with that, I think it can become a very mutually beneficial arrangement. And so that's kind of what I'm all about, like, yes, abundance, but also mutually beneficial.
Like does this make sense all around? Like, am I working in line with my values to ensure that community care and am I working in line with my values to ensure that everybody wins? I just want to see everybody win.
Patrick Armstrong
100%. And it's like if it doesn't align the best part about community and the beautiful thing about it is that we probably know other people where maybe that alignment is a little bit more clear or a little bit more in line, I guess, more aligned, I guess, and those connections can happen.
And so like there's no reason for us to feel like they're like, if it doesn't work out this one time, like it can't work out in the future. Like the best part about community is like you're not always working with the same people. And I think that's what I came away from. That's what I that's one of the one of my biggest takeaways of May.
This particular may in this particular APAHM so far or Asian Heritage Month so far has been just that there are so many like next level connections that can be made that it's not like I always have to be working with the same person or I always have to think I have to rely on X in order to get to Y or Z.
It's like, oh no, there are many, many more people out here who share the same vision or share that same passion or compassion for this type of storytelling or whatever it might be that I'm looking to do, and that we can do those things together for sure.
Natasha Jung
I do want to, you know, I do want to kind of rewind a little bit here. So following up with what you just said about, you know, making sure that, you know, making sure. But I mean, I think ultimately we do have to diversify who we partner with just to grow and figure out who's got the right resources at the right time for what we want to do and who's going to collaborate with us on bringing a shared vision to life.
But I think at the same time, going back to what you said earlier, a lot of us are just doing this for the first time. We don't have those models and so whether it be creating some sort of media platform, media channel, personal brand, professional brand, what have you, or maybe it's like, you know, doing just like doing something for the first time, like within your own family or maybe you're the first one to get a doctorates like degree.
Maybe you're the first one to, you know, if you're a cycle breaker, maybe you're the first one to go to therapy and like, talk about it, in your family. Right. I mean, there's a lot of stories like that that have been coming, especially with May also being Mental Health Awareness Month, too. I'm like of course they work together.
They're layered on top of each other. But yeah I mean it's hard being the first, but I think with being the first, there's also a great opportunity to ensure that we are not the last. Recently, actually, on May 1st, the very start of APAHM and Asian Heritage Month, I had a chance to facilitate a fireside chat with the very first Asian, specifically a Chinese Canadian mayor of Vancouver.
And if you know anything about Vancouver, we are known for our Asian population and, you know, across, you know, different waves of migration, lots of different, you know, hailing from different regions and Asia and all that and different ethnicities and languages and all that too. But the fact that, you know, he was elected in 2022 and is the very first Asian mayor of Vancouver is just mind blowing, right?
And so one of the questions that came up from the audience in that event was, do you feel pressure to perform because you are the first and how does that impact you on the date on the daily and when you're trying to get work done? And so–
Patrick Armstrong
Great question. [laughs]
Natasha Jung
Yeah. Like whether you are, you know, in politics or like in a leadership position or even just like the first one to do something in your family, it can be hard, but just know that being a cycle breaker is not meant to be easy.
And if there's something that calls you to be in that cycle breaker, then you should do it. And, you know, hopefully you can garner the support that you need throughout that and also just take care of yourself while doing that too, because I think there's the tendency for us to, you know, if we believe in something so much and, you know, something just really, really speaks to us, we can just give it our all and then not realize like, oh shit, this is like actually killing me right now.
So we have to set boundaries, as well.
Patrick Armstrong
When we do, when you step in those spaces like this and you realize like, oh, there's a specific month where business is going to be booming, for lack of a better metaphor, and you know, you're going to be busy. It's like you said, you know, the you mentioned like you I don't know where my next paycheck is coming from.
And so, you know, like in May, it's like, okay, I want to go chase, you know, whatever it is like and chase and sometimes it's hard to set that boundary. How are you setting boundaries for yourself? How are you taking care of self-care? How do you practice that while running a media company that specifically focuses on Asian stories and highlighting Asian voices?
How do you find the time to rest, recharge and get ready to kind of go after all these different things you have going on?
Natasha Jung
Yeah, I have to say, if you asked me this a year ago, I wouldn't be able to give you any sort of answer. And I'll tell you why. So just to give you a context as to what was happening last year.
So my kid just turned two. And so just a couple of months ago and now if I were to look at last year at that stage of my life, I was on maternity leave. So in Canada you can have anywhere from like three months and then share with your partner or co-parent or whoever, and you can go all the way up to like, typically people take 12 months or 18 months.
I took six and a half months of maternity leave and that sounds like now a lot, especially for my American peers. That's a conversation for another time. Sure, I think so. I think it'll be interesting to have to unpack. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's very yeah that's that's a problem. And during that time I was like, okay, I know I'm going to be very busy learning how to be a mom and all that.
And that being said, I think that was a really good time for me during that 16 and a half months of work, even though working as a full time parent was a lot of work, I still kind of went for it. So by the time May came around what was happening in May, it was literally everything everywhere all at once for me.
I was like, it was too much, okay? And I know that now what we did is we released a docu series, a four part docu series on it was called Making it Available on our YouTube and such. And it focused on highlighting four Asian Canadians doing incredible things for their community while also trying to make it for themselves.
And so we released the docu series, had a screening party and launched a fundraising campaign like starting something like these totes that you see in the background here, celebrating community. And I did like a record number of speaking engagements that month as well. And by the end of it, I completely burnt out. It was the worst.
I'm very prone to burnout and it's very much a common thing for folks with ADHD. But because I was A) undiagnosed at that time, B) just did way too much for even someone that's neurotypical and can do a lot of things all at once. It was just too much. I burnt out to the point where all I could do for three days was wake up, drive my kid to school, drop them off at daycare and come back and sleep for a couple of hours and go back and pick them up again.
It was just, it was too much. And so if I take a look at my life since then, you know, going back to to work shortly after, like literally just two weeks after that burnout stage, I was very weary of burnout because I know the impact that it could possibly have on not just me, but, you know, on my family, right?
I mean, if I'm burnt out, if I can't do anything, I'm just lying in bed. I can't do anything. I'm not useful to anybody. Right. And so and not even to myself. And so, you know, I'm honestly so grateful that the opportunity to quit my job came around because I would have either have had to go on health leave, mental health leave.
It was just too much. And I wasn't even really working on anything on Cold Tea, like while I went back to work because I knew it was going to be hard to transition back as well. So once again, I just feel very fortunate to have been able to do that. And I know that I am speaking very much from a place of privilege to be able to do that.
Yeah, but going back to your original question of how do I balance that, I know since then I've I've on ADHD medication for almost a year, I've been going to therapy and more recently started to incorporate, you know, lifestyle changes such as, you know, exercise at least twice a week, either at yoga or high intensity interval training or dance classes.
It actually was wonderful for me because I would do competitive hip hop like when I was a teenager and then took courses. But like the dance classes, it is grooving, just like music and just like moving to it and just having that release in your body. I got to tell you, for the first month, for the first four classes, I would cry every single time because it was just such a release.
Yeah, and I was just so happy to do something for myself, for my body, for my mental health, and, you know, all that helps me manage my ADHD symptoms as well. And so I feel like I'm just in a much better place and how I kind of manage my time and set those boundaries now is, yeah, sometimes after work later, like, you know, even for this podcast, I'm like, I'm so sorry, Patrick, I got to push you to tomorrow if that works for you.
Because, yeah, I just had to do things right. And so that being said, working for myself has also given me the flexibility to be able to, you know, yesterday I picked up my kid early from school to take him to get some blood tests done. And so, you know, eventually when I have more time, I want to be able to pick them up early so we can have a mother Sunday to go to the park, do something cute and fun like that, right?
Yeah. And so just knowing that I also have a ton of privilege because of the support I have. My incredible husband is a wonderful support. And he's also, of course, got a full time job too. And my parents have been just instrumental in helping make all of this possible. But I think what it comes down to is being able to discern that I don't do this very well yet, but I'm trying to work on what's important versus what is urgent.
Right. And there are so many things that we are doing, but are they all important? No. Right. And just trying to think ahead and also just practicing self-compassion. That's something that my therapist has helped me a lot with. And I think, you know, this probably goes for a lot as Asian folks, AAPI folks more broadly, I guess, and especially folks that are neurodiverse with invisible disabilities is that, you know, people can't see and we end up having to mask and we just get so down on ourselves and there's a lot of negative self-talk and, you know, practicing self-compassion can be really challenging.
But once you kind of get to that place where you can remind yourself of those things in the moment and remind yourself that you're only human, it's a game changer. And so that's something that I'm trying to actually work on to protect myself and remind myself that I do need boundaries.
Patrick Armstrong
I really appreciate you sharing all that and being so vulnerable and open with your story and your journey through that, particularly with your ADHD diagnosis and like coming out of reaching like reaching total burnout to now being at this point of like actively knowing the steps that you're taking to be able to practice, being able to take care of yourself because you said it, you know, you can't when you can't show up for yourself. It's really, really difficult to show up in the ways that you want to for the other people or the communities that you're doing the work for. And on top of, you know, May being specifically set aside for Asian heritage like you, specifically, are telling these stories all year.
It's not just in May like you're not just ramping up and doing only stuff in May. It's like you have to be able to show up in June and July, August all the way through because these stories don't just stop, you know,
Natasha Jung
Yeah we don’t stop living our lives. We don’t stop identifying as, you know, you know, as Asian or or what have you. Those experiences don't stop and they evolve and we continue to endure and, and, and all that and experience and so yeah.
Patrick Armstrong
Absolutely. So what's next on the horizon for Cold Tea as we move forward out of May and we get ready to tell stories for the back half of 2023?
Natasha Jung
Yeah. I mean, you know, it's kind of funny because before when I was working a full time job and like I was doing this off the side of my desk, I felt like I actually was more organized. It's probably because I'm a mom now.
But you have to be at the drop of a hat. Be ready to like, tend to your kid or do whatever it needs to do. But I'm I would say, you know, of course I've got my kind of roadmap for the next year or a couple of years, but more broadly, I would say Cool Tea Collective, we really just want to show up for a community.
And that's actually why I've shared this on Cold Tea Collective channels as well as my own individual channels that why this me. I was like, It's great. We're not going to do this big campaign. We're just going to show up for a community. We're going to show where the community is. We're going to amplify the work that everyone else is doing because it's not just about us this month, right.
Or year round, for that matter. So, yeah, I mean, more broadly, this next year where I guess the second half of the year, it's really just about showing up as a business. We need to basically, I don't know, I'm like, I guess this the best way to say it is try a bunch of different things out to really just develop some proofs of concept for different things we want to be able to do.
So then we can kind of more operationalize and commercialize what we do as a business. I mean, I think most people only see the media side of things like, Wow, you get to interview you, you get to go to the Golden Globes goes up, but you don't get paid to do that stuff, right. Like people don't pay you to do that.
And the way that we are structured as an outlet is that we don't we don't make people pay to access our content. Surely there are some really fantastic publications? I do. I think for us it just didn't make sense. We want to continue to make our content accessible. Plus we just mean, we don't publish enough to be able to get any of our content.
So yeah, it's like, but yeah, what makes us better than something else. Yeah. And just be able to figure out the operational foundation, especially with me transitioning into this full time role. I will say though that it's been kind of grappling with this idea of what it means to be able to literally live this dream of being able to focus on quality like a full time.
I've been kind of grappling with like, what does that really mean? I guess. Yeah, I've always kind of put myself out there, you know, founder, like executive producer, executive editor, that kind of thing. But that's what I do. But ultimately, having that shift to be able to be a CEO is something that's very new to me and it's really freaking scary, but it's something that it's a role that I need to step into.
And I think that if I could encourage our listeners here, you know, especially those, you know, building community, building their own initiatives and all that, it's very easy to slip into this space where you're literally just doing everything yourself and is a gosh, like, I'll have to forgive you the link and you can put it in the show notes and stuff.
But there's this Instagram thread that I saw recently about the difference between shifting between being a founder and CEO. Right? And I think actually that mindset was a really good reset for me. And so just for those listening, watching the founders kind of like, okay, cool, a great pride in starting this thing, but going back to what we were talking about earlier around, But how do you maintain it?
How do you make this a sustainable, viable business so that not only can I create a livelihood for myself, but for others that want to be in journalism, in media, entertainment, what have you, How can I create that space, sustain that responsibly? And that's where the CEO role comes in. So that's yeah, that's, that's what I'm trying to do this next year or the rest of the year and yeah, hopefully throw some cool events, do some fun campaigns and tell some wonderful stories.
Patrick Armstrong
I absolutely love that. Definitely going to need to get that article not only for the show but for myself, because I feel like I'm going through that same transition, I suppose, or figuring out how to balance, you know, between the two because like, this show is what I want to sustain and like, how do I build that up and thinking about what it means to show up beyond just the passion and the energy for storytelling itself?
And how can I continue to do that, you know, moving forward without necessarily having to go back to doing a corporate, which if that were to happen, would be totally fine. But it's like, you know, there are ways to do this. So and again, like just one more just to reiterate one point that you brought up as well about feeling like you have to do it all yourself, because I definitely feel that way like a design.
All my logos are like, I'll do all this stuff. And I'm like, Is this good? And then I'm like, Is there somebody else that I should be asking to help me with this? And then it's like, and then you go to like, events like the Vegas event and it's like, Oh shit, there are a ton of people out here who will be like, Oh yeah, I do this stuff and like, we would love to work together and do all of these things and it's like, I'm not alone in this business.
Like it's not you're not just alone in your own story and in the community that you're trying to find there is a community out there for you. But also on the business aspect of it, like there are people out there too, who are like, not just out here to make a buck or to exploit you into using their service or whatever it might be.
But genuinely people are out here to like, work together, to collaborate, build up and, and do something new, something that we haven't seen before. So it's really exciting and it's something I'm very excited about.
Natasha Jung
Yeah, I'm so, I'm so happy to hear that that you're starting to your mind up with that because I think like, okay, I will add a little bit more color to that too, because I think it's actually really important, especially if you are a creator, founder, transitioning to CEO or what have you.
It's this mindset of so I mean, okay, realizing that you can get help right? And you can ask for help. And I think that if you have, if you are genuine in your pursuit of your bigger picture mission to create something for community and you will attract community, I'm on the sidelines. I've seen founders and leaders who are trying, I guess, to grow a movement or grow a community, but still end up working on their own because I think it's I think maybe there's a mindset shift needed.
And I think what that is, is transitioning from a me to a we. Right? Yes. I mean, of course very much Cold Tea Collective is me. It's based on my own values but I didn't do this alone. Right. Like over the like you know we'll go with seven like seven years. We've worked with so many writers, so many editors, so many volunteers.
I mean, of course, like through the pandemic, we've kind of like streamlined that a little bit, but it's actually not a bad thing. But throughout the whole thing, like, yes, I might be kind of the face, so to speak, but it's not about me. It's about, I mean collective is literally in the name of our outlet.
Right. It's about how we can work together to really build this community as storytellers empower people to tell their stories and that and so yeah if you're transitioning from me to the we can be very challenging especially if you are inundated with work. But I just challenge the folks going through that to really just take a step back, simplify and figure out what is important versus what is urgent and take the time.
I know it is so hard to get past like, Oh my gosh, I have this massive thing to do. And I know it's so hard to get past that, but is this like if you don't do this one thing, what is the actual impact of that? Would you say no? Could you meet?
Are you trying to do too many things all at once? You know, and it's especially when you are trying to build a movement or a community, you have to be in it for the long run. You can't just write or be around for a year. I mean, you could I mean, that's that's very different. That's like that's a project.
A project is fine, but. Right. Treated as such, you know. Yeah. Because you know with all the wonderful folks doing wonderful work, like, I don't want to see anyone else burn out like so many of us are pretty. I don't want to see people burn out like I want to see them actively engaged. I want to see them happy.
I want to see them flourishing, and I want to see them proud of the work that they've been able to accomplish and not not get down on themselves because they couldn't check everything off their list
Patrick Armstrong
100%. And I love that you said that because in the episode right before this with Bianca Mobility Louis, we talk about that. We talked about this idea that the work will always be there.
And even though whatever you're doing makes up a part of that work, if you have to step away, like there's comfort in knowing that, Oh, I'm not in this again, the work by myself and like if I need to take care of myself, then that should be the priority because I know that Natasha over here and Culty Collective is going to continue, to do that work.
That's tangential to my own. And then I can come back fresh. I can come back ready, reinvigorated, rested in order to do this work and continue to move forward. Instead of hitting that burnout wall and then falling off and falling out for an extended period of time, I think that happens more often than not where we lose people to burnout and lose people to the community work because you give it your all.
And like I love that you talk about like if it's a year or something with an end date that's a project. Like that's not something you're looking to do long term necessarily, and–
Natasha Jung
which is fine, which is totally fine and totally valid. And that's much needed too.
Patrick Armstrong
Yeah, but a lot of us approach that long term idea with a project mindset where we go so hard at the start, which is what I did, you know, I resonate with it because I did that at the beginning of my journey.
It was just like constant all day, all night. The only thing I was thinking about, the only thing that I was really focusing on, to the detriment of my relationships and stuff like that. So it's like you have to take a step back. And also to my own personal health and mental health and wellbeing is just like there's too much going on and it's not helping anybody to be going this hard.
But there is a way where, oh, if I'm balancing what it means to take care of myself, that also comes with, you know, learning how to properly and appropriately take care of the community where, you know, self-care and community care. Mary In a in a really nice way,
Natasha Jung
you said it, my friend, I'm going to throw that back to you or I'm going to put my interviewer hat on myself. I mean, Patrick, like the are ten episodes, that is no small feat and just really, again, just deeply engaging conversations with really interesting people who have a ton of knowledge and influence and impact and wonderful work that they're doing in their respective fields. What has been, I guess, a highlight or a learning or, you know, just just the most exciting part for you and in producing this series for, you know, for a conversation piece, specifically the APM conversations.
Patrick Armstrong
Yeah, I think the most exciting part was just doing it and like following through and getting it done. Not only just recording the podcast conversations, but telling myself I was going to put these things on YouTube and like to do short form and like actually following through and getting those things done. I'm excited in myself for doing that because I think when I look back on it, I'm like, Okay, that was a lot of work.
And I probably, yeah, yeah, maybe do like five episodes of not ten, but honestly, it was so worth it because I talked about this a lot when we first launched the series that I felt a lot of imposter syndrome when I first said, okay, I'm going to do this, I'm like, Reach out to all the people. Because I'm like, Are anybody going to say yes?
Like, why would they say yes to this? Like, this is something not related to The Janchi Show, which is my already established podcast or anything related to Jerry or anything. You know, this is totally my own thing. And to my pleasant surprise, everybody said yes, except for one person who hopefully I'll be able to interview in the future.
But like it just it all kind of just went off without a hitch and then it's so so that's very exciting. But The biggest takeaway that I've had is from something that Rick Allen shared in his episode, which as of recording, is coming out next Monday. But he said, we were talking about how we get people to recognize in our community like the different intersections and the multiple marginalized identities that exist within our community.
And he said we have, he said “to continue is to normalize.” And I like I feel like it's really simple on its face, but it's just that's that that sentence has just been ringing in my head ever since he said it, ever since we recorded the interview in April, because I feel like it's just like that's what I've been trying to do when it comes to this narrative shift that I've been pursuing from an adoptee perspective for our community.
And it's for the very fact that we for a long time have fought the normalized narrative of like adoption is only this good thing that happens to people. And instead of like we're trying to bring this nuance and whatnot. And also it makes me think about how we haven't had these models for success and how we can be successful and not exploit the community like we have to continue to do the stuff that we're doing, what Cold Tea is doing, what I'm doing here with Conversation Piece, what we do on the Janchi Show, because to continue to do that is to normalize and we get away from or we move beyond the firsts, you know, where
we're not always like you just talked about. You just interviewed the very first Chinese-Canadian mayor of Vancouver in 2022, like the first. And when we when we're talking about a lot of firsts, like with everything ever, where they were all at once, all of that happening, all of these firsts happening, that just shows that we're at the beginning of this journey of normalization for what it means to be Asian, Asian-American, just Asian diasporic, in whatever sense, what it means to exist as Asian in this world, because we are here in 2023 still saying, oh, this is the first this person to do this.
And that's not only in our community too, like We're just one now, just one community of the many that make up all of this world, you know, all of humanity. And then on top of that, all of the intersections that we see, like the hidden disabilities that people have, you know, there's a lot of intersection there and there needs to be representation, there needs to be support for those communities. And like that's on us within our own diasporas to look at and to pursue.
And so that's been my biggest takeaway is that, for as far along as we are, we're still very new to normalizing what it means to exist as people. And while it's really sad, it's also really exciting because it's like, okay, let's keep going.
Like, let's make it happen.
Natasha Jung
We're doing it, my friend. We're doing it.
Patrick Armstrong
We're trying to for sure.
Natasha Jung
You know, I did say, so I said that about myself and like what I'm doing with Cold Tea Collective last week to, to a new friend that I'd made. And he said, “No, don't say you're trying. You're literally doing it.” I'm like, “Oh, okay, Yeah.”
I mean, like, yeah, I once again, that goes down to, you know, just speaking confidently. And I mean, who's to say that you're not doing it right? It's just, you know, to who's in criteria, to who's measurement. So you're doing it and just know that you're not doing it alone, Patrick
Patrick Armstrong
Well, I really, really appreciate you, and I know that I'm not doing it alone because you very graciously came along and decided to do this with me for this particular series. And honestly, it just means so much because again, that was a shot in the dark, just swinging my bat at the pitch of like, “Hey, do you think maybe you would want to potentially help me amplify the series?”
And the fact that you the very fact that you said yes is, again, this is another exciting thing to come of this, because it proves to myself that, okay, what I was doing with this series, what I was hoping to do meant something and it was worth pursuing because at least person thought I saw what I saw in the series and that was you and validating, you know, that pursuit has only made me more motivated to do more stuff like this with this show and know that, you know, I got to continue to do these things, continue to pursue it. And yeah it just means a lot. So I really appreciate you.
Natasha Jung
Oh, my gosh. I was just going to say like, okay, I know you're trying to wrap it up. We're very much over time, you're like, oh, you're going to –
Patrick Armstrong
I feel like we could go as far, like a story two hour podcast for sure.
Natasha Jung
Yeah, I don't know if the people would want that, but I got to say, like, it's I think a lot of us look to external validation as a sign to continue on. And of course, how could we not, right? That's just how our society, our generation and our different layers of intersectional identities have conditioned us to be so.
But I just know that the work that you're doing would have been exceptional, valid and important, even without our involvement or even without, you know, all these different factors. And so I think with that it's just about having confidence and in the pursuit of what calls you and the pursuit of what's set your heart on fire.
Patrick Armstrong
I appreciate that.
I appreciate those words. And I feel like that's a great wrap up, because at the very beginning, you talked about hearing your calling and like you have to hear your calling, calling out to you. It's not necessarily looking to find. And, you know, I do think that this was something that I heard in the back of my mind for a long time.
And finally, just like reached out and like it penetrated something in my mind to be like, okay, let's go ahead and do this. And so I appreciate that and I appreciate you. How do we support you and how do we support a whole team moving forward?
Natasha Jung
Yeah, Thank you so much. I mean, at the very base level, like, share, comment, subscribe, I mean, most of our stories are on gold tea collective dot com.
Of course we're on social media as well. But more than that, I mean we are largely a volunteer driven organization and so we do have a lovely yellow golden yellow donation button on our website. And so if you do feel like making a contribution, even just a couple bucks here and there or a couple of bucks every month, just makes a big difference for us.
And honestly, just really grateful for the connections and community we've been able to build over the years. And yeah, just tell us, tell all your friends about us. So coldteacollective.com and at Cold Tea Collective on social channels.
Patrick Armstrong
You heard it here first.Well, not first, [laughs] but you definitely heard it here. Folks, support Natasha and support Cold Tea Collective.
You can find all of those links in the show notes, but make sure you support to make sure that we can continue to tell these stories and build this sustainable storytelling method so we can continue to build the empathy with our communities that we need in order to make the progress that we're looking to make moving forward. Natasha, again, thank you so much for partnering with me to amplify this series and for sitting down for yourself and taking the time to have this conversation with me for the APAHM Conversations, it means so much.
Again, folks, you can find all the links to everything that we've chatted about here in the show notes and you can follow us at Conversation Pod Piece on Instagram. If you feel inclined to leave us a rating or a review, we would greatly appreciate it. That's on whatever podcast player allows for that to happen.
And if you are interested in supporting the show, you can do that by getting in my DMs or contacting me via my website, Patrick in the World dot me. This is the end of the APAHM Conversations, but it's not the end of the conversation. We will have a new episode coming out next Monday, so stay tuned for that.
Until then, I am Patrick Armstrong and this has been Conversation Piece. Thanks, Natasha.
Natasha Jung
Thanks, Patrick.