Patrick Armstrong
Hey everyone. Welcome to Conversation Piece with Patrick Armstrong. I am the titular Patrick and this is the show where my guests and I discuss what piece of the conversation we aren't talking about but should be. Special shout out to all my returning listeners and a high five and hello to everyone joining us for the very first time; thank you so much.
The month of May is Asian Pacific American Heritage Month or APAHM, and is meant to celebrate and reflect on the history and peoples that make up our beautiful diaspora. As part of that reflection, this month, I'll be sharing nine conversations with friends and folks I greatly admire in the community as we discuss those missing pieces of the Asian American conversation.
What we know, what we might not know, and what we can do about it. These are The APAHM Conversations. My guest today is a queer, Jewish, anti-bias and anti-racist educator, facilitator and author who also happens to be a fellow Korean adoptee. I am honored to welcome Liz Kleinrock to the show. Hey Liz.
Liz Kleinrock
And friend. How come you didn't mention that one too?
Patrick Armstrong
And friends and a friend on the show and off the show.
Liz Kleinrock
Yeah.
Patrick Armstrong
I don't know why I didn't say that. I don't think I say that with anybody. And I think I'm friends with everyone that I’m talking to on the series. So, thank you for naming that. I should be saying that in my introductions with people.
Liz, welcome. How are you?
Liz Kleinrock
I’m good. No complaints. Just giving you a hard time. [laughs]
Patrick Armstrong
I'm doing better now that I'm being held accountable for not calling on my friendships when I speak with people on my podcast, which is, I think, very important. So thank you for calling me on that.
Liz Kleinrock
I get it, though. I mean, I feel like sometimes we worry that people will just be like, “Well, all you're doing is like inviting your friends. So it's just nepotism.” Like, it's a different type of nepotism. But I mean, I always tell people that in like our line of work, when you're focused on community and identity and justice, there's no one that I've worked with who I don't consider a friend.
Like, there is no one who I am in partnership or I've collaborated with where our communication is just solely work. We check in with each other about our lives and how we're feeling and our friendships and our family is like, that's a part I think I wish people would do more of.
Patrick Armstrong
That's a really good point. I think that is something I've never thought about before. And you're right. Like, the people – especially because I've only been doing this for the last three years or so – all of the people I feel like that I do work with I am friends with now or have at least a little bit deeper of a relationship than that surface level work relationship.
Maybe we should talk about that.
Liz Kleinrock
Okay, let's talk about that.
Patrick Armstrong
We can talk about that. All right. Before we talk about that, I know I gave you a little bit of an intro, but for people who may not know you, do you mind sharing a little bit more about yourself?
Liz Kleinrock
Sure. So Patrick covered my main social identities. I've been in education for [around] 13 years. I've taught every single grade of elementary school. I've also taught middle school. I've been a librarian. But my focus is really on anti-bias and anti-racism education, facilitation, speaking and writing. I wrote a book on anti-bias anti-racism in schools that came out in May 2021.
I have a handful of upcoming children's books on different topics, all that relate to different parts of my identity. Also, the first one comes out this September. It's called Come and Join Us, which I'm very excited about!
What else do I like? I like fly fishing. I like horror movies. I have two pet bunnies and a cat. I feel like those are the main things. I live in DC.
Patrick Armstrong
That's a good one.
Liz Kleinrock
I lived in California for about ten years. I'm just listing random things now. Please tell me to stop. [laughs]
Patrick Armstrong
Well, thank you for sharing that and we'll link in the show notes to all of the wonderful things that you're working on.
Let's dive into this conversation. We were going to talk about something else, but I like what you brought up because I feel like I'm not talking about it. So I wonder if other people are talking about it.
And that's the relationships we build together when we step into work. I don't know; your work specifically is anti-bias anti-racist education. I don't know what my work is – storytelling, specifically with a lens of the Asian-American adoptee experience. But sometimes I think this we do this work with other people and we develop these relationships, but I don't know, sometimes we maybe not label them as friendships or friends, or maybe we don't talk about that and name that explicitly.
You elaborated on it in the introduction. Can you go more into that concept specifically?
Liz Kleinrock
Yeah, I mean, I guess when I think about my coworkers, like if I had to unpack the idea of coworker, I think my bias puts me in an office building, a 9-to-5 situation where there are cubicles and conference rooms and meetings and things like that. Clearly, like I think in most jobs you end up forming relationships with people.
I mean, if it's just your work friends, so like they're the person you eat lunch with at work, you go to happy hour with that person. But maybe, you know, on the weekend they're not the person that you're hitting up. I feel really lucky because when I taught at one particular school in L.A. for almost eight years, I came away with a really strong group of friends.
I met my best friend at work – like I was her maid of honor, she and her partner were also very instrumental in my wedding – and that stemmed from work. But I think because now this year, since I'm not in the classroom, I think a lot about the relationships that I have with people. If it's school clients I think sometimes the client friendship line can be a little complicated, when there is something transactional, when money is involved, that can sometimes complicate friendships and relationships. It shouldn't have to, but it just does.
But when I think about people that I have collaborated with, particularly at the beginning of the pandemic, when everything shut down, a group of other educators who all focus on anti-bias and anti-racism came together and formed this collective called Liberate and Chill. And I was friends with probably 70% of the people. There were like 12, 13 of us.
Mostly people I knew. But then the others who I got to know through that work, even though we were coming together for the purpose of educating people to be able to sustain our incomes. It was technically work, but we got out of it something so much bigger. And I think an important piece of that was being able to model for people like what being in community and being in relationship with others looks like and what that feels like that, Yes.
Like we have these shared values, we have these common goals, we do work together and there is an additional layer to that as well. It would feel weird, let's say, for you and I, because we have worked together on different projects before. We're presenting at a conference together this summer, right? For us to just begin the conversation with, “All right, let's go straight to the agenda.”
Of course, I'm going to ask you something like, “How's your partner? How is your new house?” You know, “How are all the different, amazing projects that you're working on going?” And if something comes up that's personal, we can table the work conversation because the work isn't going anywhere.
Our relationship needs to be cultivated. It needs to be supported. You do have to put a good amount of effort and energy into it. And I'm proud to say that there aren’t people that I view as just work people. Unless I've done a one-on-one consultation for you or something like that. But I think it's beautiful to be able to get to know folks on a deeper level than just, “What is the product that you are selling or supporting and how am I receiving that?”
And what's it been like for you? Because you would talk to people all the time.
Patrick Armstrong
Yeah, I mean I think that for me it's… I don't know because I think it's a lot of my work is wrapped up in we have to have a conversation first because the work is the conversation itself and so there's a little bit of not forced-ness to it, but a little bit of inevitability for us to develop a relationship because we have to have that conversation.
And generally we're talking a little bit more deeply about someone's personal story. And I'm also relaying stuff from my personal journey and my history. And so it develops a little bit more slowly, I guess, because while I let people in really quickly, I think to really trust and feel like that relationship is fully forming, it takes a lot longer for me.
And I wanted to ask you, you know, you talked about the group coming together at the beginning of the pandemic: Liberate and Chill. Can you talk about or even describe when a relationship with someone you are just meeting who maybe operates in the same space or community as you goes from being just a working or collaboration type of thing to becoming more of a deeper relationship akin to a friendship.
Liz Kleinrock
Yeah, I mean, I think that's when I start texting you about the show that we both mentioned, that we're both watching or something like that. If I'm in your town for a conference or for work, am I going to hit you up to, like, grab a bite, like get a coffee with me?
And also looking at the amount of effort that the other person is putting in too, because I've done a lot of podcasts. I just mentioned to you earlier that I've done a few even today, which were both with, you know, lovely people and I've also done podcasts in the past where it felt uncomfortably transactional, and they have the best people – like I have an assistant who helps me with things – and if you have an assistant, that's amazing. But let's say that, like I'm only communicating with your assistant up until the recording, and then when we record, we go on, I've sent you a bio, my headshots, you ask these questions, and at the end, you say, “Okay, thanks so much. Bye.” And then that's the end.
Then your screen goes blank and you feel like, “Wow, that was a really nice conversation, but I'm probably not even going to remember your name in a couple of weeks.” Like, it felt so transactional that we sat here, I bared my soul. You asked me really personal questions and then that's over and that's it.
And obviously I understand that people do podcasting for a living, that people are going to put different amounts of effort and energy into the relationships that they cultivate. And for me, I want to know that there is a deeper level of care beyond “What do I bring to your platform or your own marketability,” you know?
Patrick Armstrong
Yeah, I mean, I really appreciate you naming that because it's something that has crossed my mind. And I feel like on The Janchi Show, we've talked about that a little bit. It's like our follow up with guests that we've previously talked to. And I feel like for the most part we do have somewhat of a relationship with almost everyone, but not everyone.
And I do think it does fall on our shoulders a little bit to carry that relationship forward because like you said, a guest comes on and then they're baring their soul to you. There was somebody who applied and we did not get to that person for a really long time. And they wrote us an email and they were upset because they felt like they had just shared, really vulnerably, their story in the guest form.
And then they were hoping for a response much more quickly than we were able to give. But we didn't set the expectation of what the timeline was, so that’s on us. And I remember that distinctly because I'm like, I don't want to make people feel like that, you know what I mean? Especially when they come on to the show in order to share something that they probably never shared with someone before.
We did end up having that person on the show. And I think we actually talked about it in their episode, and it felt cathartic just because we were able to bridge that, you know, that miscommunication, but also hold ourselves accountable in a real way. And like you said before, with the community model, maybe what that looks like in terms of how do you cultivate a relationship with someone from the standpoint of Asian America and working together collaboratively, reaching out from our own communities and working together with other communities that make up the diverse nature of our diaspora?
What do you think that we need to do as Asian, Pacific Islander, Native Hawaiian, Desi Americans to see, to be able to work together to develop deeper relationships?
Liz Kleinrock
Yeah. I mean, the self educating piece is really, really important for one. When I recognize that I know very little, for example, about the South Asian immigration experience or the Southeast Asian immigration experience, or maybe the things that I have learned have only been through the lens of a United States, Western experience, like especially in thinking about Southeast Asian folks – many of whom like ended up in the United States, not because they wanted to, but because of a political situation actually created by the U.S. and other Western nations – there is a lot of complexity there.
So yeah, I guess it's very much embracing the, “Yes. And,” It's not so much this “Either, or” that our community is unified under this term, Asian American, which is still relatively new, like was actually created only in like what, 1960, 1970 in California? But for a lot of Asian folks, there is a lot more affinity towards your specific ethnic subgroup rather than Asian American as a term overall. As a facilitator, I've run into a handful of Asian folks who have expressed a lot of discomfort and rejection outright of the term Asian or Asian American.
Even the term like people of color, they want to be seen as their ethnicity because that is how they identify, that is their culture. And I also completely understand that, too. It's complex. The experience of a Korean adoptee who grew up on the East Coast like me and a Jewish family is going to be extremely different then, you know, a friend of mine who is Vietnamese American, grew up in Texas, and as the child of refugees. It's going to be even different for you being Korean, adopted, and growing up in Indiana.
It's going to be different for everybody. So while we often say to the community outside of Asian folks and Pacific Islander folks that we are not monolithic, you know, we are diverse, we want to be seen this way, are we actually holding up the mirror to ourselves too? How are we also looking at our community? What are the nuances in language that we're trying to lean into and understanding that we all have different experiences?
Patrick Armstrong
You talked about self-education being super important and going, not the extra mile, but even doing the bare minimum of reaching out and learning about other communities within our larger diaspora. How do you or what would you recommend for people who feel like, “I didn't learn this in school? I don't know what the end is.”
Obviously there's like a Dear Asian Americans, there are many, many ways for people to enter into the space to learn. Do you have advice for folks who just feel like, for whatever reason, they have a fear or there’s some sort of self-limiting thing that's keeping them from wanting to take that first step? I'm thinking now as an example, like a transracial adoptee who might be, because of their specific lived experience or because of a certain lived experience, might feel super resistant or hesitant to explore, not even their own ethnic culture, but any other cultures.
Is there a piece of advice that you can even give to someone in that situation to take that first step? I don't know. This is fresh in mine just because I feel like I've been seeing a lot of this on my TikTok, for example, of adoptees voicing a discomfort to, not everyone, but just to start that exploration and asking for that same advice.
Liz Kleinrock
My mind always goes to the underlying why? Like, why is it intimidating or why is there not interest in that? What is the perception of the barriers that exist that prevent you from doing this type of self work?
Patrick Armstrong
Sure.
Liz Kleinrock
I think for folks who want to be able to own the term like Asian American or talk about representing or advocating for Asian Americans, it's not a pick and choose situation. Like if you want to, like, go hard for East Asians, at least say that's what you're doing. Don't say that you support people across the Asian diaspora when you're really only focused on one region or like one ethnic subgroup.
I think there's this power in being able to name what you're doing. Like when I talk about inclusivity and like the Asian American community reminds me that I have to hold myself accountable and be really mindful of making sure that I'm also amplifying and elevating South Asian, Southeast Asian, Western, Central Asian people, because we know that the bias immediately goes towards China, Japan, Korea.
We have to be aware of that. And we certainly see that in different types of Asian American organizations, too. And we look at leadership who is on the board of certain orgs and stuff like that. So if you are saying that I am here to support, for example, Korean adoptees, there's nothing wrong with that. Just say it. Don't say that you are all about like the entire adoptee community when like that's actually not the focus of what you're doing.
Patrick Armstrong
I appreciate you sharing that because I do think it's important to name it. And be aware of the why. I think we too often right now skim the surface of a lot of these things. And it's easy for us, especially if we find ourselves in a lived experience that has maybe had, intentionally, put the blinders on us. But we are unaware that the blinders exist, currently, and we're trying to find our way through the tunnel to be able to start seeing and to kind of tie this all together into the topic that we came into this conversation discussing, I think that self-awareness goes a long way towards developing the empathy necessary to build relationships with the people that you work with, with the people that you find yourself in community with.
If that's what you want to do, which hopefully you want to do, because by working together we're able to do great things and move the needle forward in terms of change. Now, to take that question and talk about it in terms of folks outside of our community, how do they support us and build relationships with the Asian American or Asian diaspora itself?
I assume it starts, again, with self education on their part, but are there other ways to go about facilitating and cultivating those relationships with our community that maybe we're not talking about right now?
Liz Kleinrock
I mean, I think for folks who are not Asian, yes, like you just said, starting with that self education piece and thinking about how common microaggressions are the ways that people's biases, again, like mostly in support of East Asians, often shows up. And I do think that that can create a lot of resentment with other parts of the Asian diaspora.
I'm sure that if I were a South Asian or Southeast Asian or Western Asian, that I would feel a ton of resentment that every time you see a post about Asian American history or a community that's for Asian Americans and you just see East Asian features, like that would upset me too. I would be outraged about that. So thinking about the ways in which you can enter the conversation with that very open perspective, I think that is super helpful.
I know that you and I have also talked about the pitfalls of the scarcity mindset because the Asian American diaspora is so large. We're talking about people from, you know, almost 50 different nations, like all these different languages and cultures and traditions and beliefs that what if we're all put in a position to compete for this limited – or at least the perception of – a limited amount of space or attention or platform, then yeah, that's a recipe for disaster. That if everybody thinks that if this is our one chance, it has to be perfect, every single person of every intersection of every identity needs to be represented.
And if this is the only thing that we get, it has to be flawless. And that is, you know, it's just a recipe for disaster.
Patrick Armstrong
Yeah, I think “recipe for disaster” is an excellent way to describe it because it obscures the actual goal and it usually ends up perpetuating harm towards somebody. And while some people might move forward, there's other people who either are staying in the same spot or have been kicked back down a few notches because of what we've done to scramble to get ahead and whatever the situation might be.
Who right now is inspiring you in terms of relationship building? Who do you see right now that is doing the coalition work within the Asian American diaspora and without and not without but with and with other communities as well, like cross-racial solidarity.
Liz Kleinrock
Someone who I have been very privileged to learn from to work with, going back to the original – I hope I can call her my friend because I really like her a lot – is Ellen Oh. She is a Korean-American, middle grade and young adult author. She lives very close to me and she is also the founder of We Need Diverse Books.
And so she has been out on the front lines for quite some time talking about the importance of affirming representation in kids literature. And she has also been such a vocal supporter against book bans and the things that we're currently seeing in so many states and in this country. She is fearless. She is a connector. She is so generous of spirit.
She lends her expertise and her advice whenever possible. And I feel so lucky to be in community with her, like she works with everybody. I love it.
Patrick Armstrong
Amazing. Ellen Oh – I appreciate you sharing that and I will definitely lin We Need Diverse Books here in the show notes as well.
Liz, I really appreciate you again sitting down with me. For folks who don't know, I'm going to give a little behind the scenes. We already recorded one episode and we were like, you know what, Let's record a second one. [laughs] So that's what this conversation is. And I just want to mention that because I really appreciate you giving me your time and taking time out of your schedule to sit down and do something like this with me. It really means a lot.
Two more questions before we wrap it up here. A lot of people have a lot of different thoughts and feelings about heritage months, specifically, and I've written a little bit about this topic myself. And so I was wondering, do you personally celebrate APAHM and if so, or if not, do you feel comfortable sharing why or why not?
Liz Kleinrock
Heck yeah. And heck yeah, I celebrate APAHM 100%. It's like your birthday, you know? Like, at least to me! I know that I am important, at least in my own life, 365 days a year. And, you know, like on your birthday, you get a little extra attention. People try to keep it, like, pretty positive.
And I kind of do the same thing for heritage months. Like should Black history, women's history, Asian American history, queer history be included all year long? Absolutely. Yes, 100%. And because there are so many challenges and complications when thinking about our history, you can't fit everything into one month. I personally think that heritage months should be used to celebrate joy, to look at the beauty and the power of our community, that this is not the time to be talking about the murders in Atlanta from a few years ago.
This is not the time to be talking about the Chinese Exclusion Acts and the ways that Asians and Asian Americans have faced discrimination and racism like we have 11 other months out of the year where we can talk about all of those things. I want this to be as joyful as possible. So just about what we focus on.
But yeah, I think heritage months are important too, because I know that there are also a lot of people who don't put any thought into our community, and at least if they're doing it now like, it is not the end all, be all, but it is a place to start and I'll take that. That's okay. Everybody has to start somewhere.
Patrick Armstrong
Absolutely. I absolutely love that. Thank you so much for sharing that. I think you're absolutely right. And I think even for me, the last few months or the last few years of celebrating, I think I have been kind of caught up in less of the joy and more so the unpacking all of the terrible things that are happening. And I hadn't really thought about it that way. So I really appreciate you sharing that. I really, really like that.
You specifically get to celebrate May double time.
Liz Kleinrock
I do!
Patrick Armstrong
You get a double special because it's also Jewish American Heritage Month. Can you talk a little bit about what it means to be able to celebrate two things and how you hold space for both as you go and navigate this month?
Liz Kleinrock
I literally just made a slide deck about this for my Patreon community, like specifically about the intersection of Jewish American history and APAHM. So I'm very, very excited about this. I feel like a lot of folks would probably expect me to kind of separate those two, to compartmentalize, like there's the Asian celebration, there's the Jewish celebration. I reject that.
I think they're very, very easy to celebrate both at the same time, because it's not like I am half Asian and half Jewish. I am fully and wholly Asian. I am fully and wholly Jewish. I don't want to have to be put in a position to pick and choose. What I do think is that we can focus on certain things that both communities share in common.
If not, I mean, like history is part of it. It's not just history. And this deck that I created, it's reminding folks of the importance of intersectionality. One, you can be more than one thing at the same time, that while Judaism is a religion and an ethnicity, you can also be Asian, Desi, Pacific Islander and also Jewish fully. Two, it’s going back to that scarcity mindset and the abundance piece that yeah, you can always make space to celebrate more than one person or group at the same time, there's enough celebration to go around.
The third is the similarities piece, that both the Jewish and APIDA communities have shared experiences in our histories and treatment, and even looking at the model minority myth, which a lot of aspects do extend to the Jewish community in the U.S. as well. And then last but not least, shared goals and objectives, that I know that justice is a core value in Judaism and from the Asian folks I am in community with, I know that justice is very much a part of the Asian American experience as well, that there are so many similarities and commonalities between folks in both communities trying to center like the liberation and striving for a more equitable world for everybody, that is something that we share.
In the past when people would tell me, you know, like as an Asian Jewish person, like, essentially telling me that I don't belong. And I really felt that way for such a long time that I had to prove my Jewishness because I was Asian, because I wasn't the image of what people's biases make them imagine in their head when they picture somebody who's Jewish. I know my history. I know that there have been Jewish communities in all regions of Asia for thousands of years in China and India. I know that Shanghai and the Philippines were safe havens for Jewish refugees who escaped to Europe during the Holocaust. There are so many examples of allyship that have existed. I know this history.
So when people say that to me, I can then say, “Actually, it seems like you're actually the one who doesn't know your history. I know where I actually come from. I know my roots. Just because you're ignorant doesn't give you the ability to try to dictate what is or isn't my truth and my journey here.”
Patrick Armstrong
Absolutely beautiful. Thank you so much for sharing that and can't wait for you to be able to share that with your community. Folks, if you're not already supporting Liz on her Patreon, go there because you will learn so much more and you'll be supporting someone who's doing this amazing work.
Liz, You're an absolutely amazing person and I just want to affirm to you how much I feel like I've learned from you and how much I know other folks have learned from you as well. Every time you impart a piece of wisdom or share something on social media or wherever else I follow you along at, the response is overwhelming, just to see the amount of people whose lives you affect in a positive way with the work that you do is absolutely amazing. It's a privilege for me to be able to just sit and see and be a part of from an audience perspective.
So, thank you for all of that. Outside of your Patreon, how else do we support you?
Liz Kleinrock
Thanks, Patrick. That's really nice. Aww you’re gonna make me cry.
You can find me on Instagram, my handle is @teachandtransform and I have a website, also teach and transform dot org, so feel free to hit me up. Yeah. Thank you so much.
Patrick Armstrong
You are so very welcome. And you have a book coming out in October, correct?
Liz Kleinrock
September 5th!
Patrick Armstrong
September 5th. Come and Join Us, coming out. Is that available for preorder?
Liz Kleinrock
Heck yeah. [laughs] Please preorder it.
Patrick Armstrong
Yes. Please go and preorder it, folks. You know how to support Liz, again, I'm just going to thank you one more time for taking a little bit of your fri – I about said Friday – a little bit of your Monday to sit down and have this second conversation with me. It means so much for you to be a part of the series and super excited about everything that you have coming up as well.
Again, this has been The APAHM Conversations. If you want to support Liz, you can find all of the amazing things that we talked about here in the show notes. If you want to support our show, you can follow us along @conversationpodpiece on Instagram, and if you feel so inclined to leave a rating or review on whatever podcast player you're currently listening to this on, we greatly appreciate it.
And if you're interested in supporting the show in the future, feel free to hop in my DMs or visit my website, patrickintheworld dot me. Until next time. I'm Patrick Armstrong and this has been Conversation Piece. Thanks Liz.
Liz Kleinrock
Thank you.