Conversation Piece with Patrick Armstrong
The APAHM Conversations Series
Bianca Mabute-Louie
Patrick Armstrong
Hey everyone! Welcome to Conversation Piece with Patrick Armstrong. I am the titular Patrick and this is the show where my guests and I discuss what piece of the conversation we aren't talking about but should be. Special shout out to all my returning listeners and a high five and hello to everyone joining us for the very first time; thank you so much.
The month of May is Asian Pacific American Heritage Month or APAHM, and is meant to celebrate and reflect on the history and peoples that make up our beautiful diaspora. As part of that reflection, this month, I'll be sharing nine conversations with friends and folks I greatly admire in the community as we discuss those missing pieces of the Asian American conversation: what we know, what we might not know, and what we can do about it. These are The APAHM Conversations.
My guest today is a sociology doctoral student at Rice University, as well as an author and educator. Her research examines how religious socialization shapes the racial attitudes and political engagement of Asian Americans. She has served Asian American youth and community based organizations as well as taught Asian-American studies at San Francisco State University, Laney College, City College of San Francisco, and Oakland Unified School District. It is my honor and privilege to welcome Bianca Mabute-Louie to the show.
Hey, Bianca, thank you so much for joining me.
Bianca Mabute-Louie
Thank you for having me, Patrick. I'm excited for this.
Patrick Armstrong
I am very excited for this as well. I'm just going to hype you up a little bit more. I've been following your work for a long time. For listeners who may not know, you are one of the folks sharing things and resources and stories and information that really helped to shape and reframe the way that I thought about myself as Asian American and as and how I wanted to navigate the work that I do.
So it's a big honor for me to be able to sit here and have this conversation with you, again, thank you so much for this time, for your energy and for everything that we'll talk about today.
Bianca Mabute-Louie
You're very welcome.
Patrick Armstrong
All right. So I know I introduced you just a little bit, but for those who may not know who you are, do you mind sharing just a little bit more about yourself?
Bianca Mabute-Louie
Yeah, I'm currently in Houston, Texas. I've been here for about three years. Before that, I grew up in California, in San Gabriel Valley, which is a very heavily Asian ethnoburb. And then I lived in Oakland for about 10, 11 years. And so all of those places really formed my politics and how I understand myself and how I'm approaching being in a new state where it often feels like ground zero for a lot of really intense political issues.
And besides the professional stuff, I have two dogs, I am passionate about eating and finding new restaurants wherever I am at. And yeah, glad to be here.
Patrick Armstrong
Any favorite foods or restaurants currently on your mind or that you've been craving a lot recently?
Bianca Mabute-Louie
Oh my gosh. So in the South – Houston, New Orleans area, in the Gulf – it is currently crawfish season, which is only, I think, February to April. My partner’s from Houston, and so I've come to visit before and I was like, “What is this whole thing with crawfish?” And since moving here, I get it. I have become a believer. Specifically Viet-Cajun, though, you know, as an Asian American studies enthusiast and scholar, I'm very excited when food represents the political histories of who's been here. But the Viet-Cajun is just superior to regular Cajun food in my opinion. [laughs]
Patrick Armstrong
Okay, we've heard it here first or maybe not, definitely not last: Viet-Cajun is the way to go, the superior version. So I'm going to try that out. I was in Houston for a few months and did not explore as much food as I should have. Very much leaned heavily into the barbecue and got sucked in. [laughs] So I'm definitely going to have to make that happen soon.
Thank you for sharing that and to be mindful of your time, I want to go ahead and just jump right into the conversation because I'm excited to hear and discuss with you what you feel like is missing. So let me ask you that: what piece of the conversation do you think is missing or that we are just not talking about enough right now when it comes to Asian America or the Asian diaspora, specifically?
Bianca Mabute-Louie
I love that prompt, Patrick, and as I was preparing for this, I was thinking about how…we're like three days into AAPI Heritage Month, so I'm getting a lot in my news feed and emails about “first Asian American CEO of this” and “the first American that,” “first Asians in this C-suite” and “Asian billionaire” is right now all of my feed but I noticed during these months we tend to really uplift and highlight the first Asian whatever, in a lot of times, predominantly white institutions.
So I was thinking about how, you know, what I often wish we could talk more about is the limits of Asian American representation and even leadership at times in these, again, white capitalist institutions and thinking more about, while representation is very important and I'm all about it – I think I would have turned out very differently if I had like Blackpink growing up, right? [laughs] – it's all very inspiring, but it's ultimately not the end goal.
And so really questioning what are we doing with this representation and in what ways are we using our access to create something new or to just again, replicate white power structures and institutions and systems?
Patrick Armstrong
I think that's a really important piece to think about because I've been having conversations recently about “the first this, the first that,” like you mentioned and in one of our other interviews on this series, one of the guests shared, not about this specific topic, but they said, “To continue is to normalize.” To continue doing things is to normalize that behavior.
And while it's great to see “the first this, the first that” and to see that representation, like you said, there are steps further to go for this. And the first does not mean that's normalized. The first almost sounds exceptional, where this is the exception to the rule, and obviously we want to go past that and go further than that, especially when we're navigating these predominantly white institutions.
And so for us as Asian Americans or for us who inhabit Asian diasporic communities, how do we start to address that? Because, yes, we want to see representation and things like Everything, Everywhere, All at Once are amazing for that specific thing. But even for a movie like that, it's like we're getting all these awards, but where do we go from here?
Is that going to be the last time we see awards or what do we have to do internally to ensure that we are taking that next step, going beyond just that surface level representation?
Bianca Mabute-Louie
That's a great question. I have been saying this, more so the last year or so, that me in my most liberated state is me not really striving and just being really comfortable taking naps all day and to not feel the need and the burden and pressure of – and I feel this in my realm in academia too, because there aren't a lot of Asian American sociologists in my department – to feel like I have to be the best and excel at everything to to be taken seriously for my research on Asian Americans to be seen as legitimate.
And I think part of what's next in an ideal world, and maybe even thinking about the next generation, hopefully they don't feel that pressure to be the first because there have been many before them. And like you and I think you said your guest was saying, it's normalized that Asian creators are in these positions of leadership in these industries.
I also think about, I don't know if this enters your question directly, but what got me thinking about this was the controversy over Beef recently and that was a very…I think that was a show that was the first of its kind. And at the same time, these Asian creators, these celebrities that I have parasocial obsessions with, we’re part of this culture and community of silence that enables abusers, which we see all over white Hollywood.
And so, again, internally, I think we need to be thinking about representation at what cost? And what kind of standards of, not just excellence in storytelling, but standards of community and integrity are we holding ourselves and each other to?
And yeah, I think just really taking being accountable to each other and to our broader community, particularly in the Beef example, to broader communities of color and in the very specific example of Black women, taking that kind of accountability and that position of influence and authority more seriously
Patrick Armstrong
That accountability piece is so, so important.
I'm pretty sure we've mentioned accountability in some form or fashion in every one of these interviews for this, or every one of the episodes for the series. And particularly with Beef, it does feel like this unwillingness to hold David Choe, for example, specifically accountable for these acts and saying, “Oh, well, he apologized,” or even using people as props to say “this is fine now,” like “we've addressed this, he addressed this and now we're moving on. Why would you want to sabotage this new piece of representation that we have?” And again, it goes back to what you said before about how we want to go beyond that.
And I feel like a lot of that starts with, or we get a lot of the actionable items, the steps that we can take to move forward from folks in your industry, in academia; how have you seen that change from your perspective as an academic in that institution? Has that changed a lot, even over the last three years? I know you said in the last year you've learned to find a balance, maybe – I don't know if it's a balance – but find a piece of like, “here's how I want to move through the work,” how have you seen that shift in academic spaces, specifically in this regard?
Bianca Mabute-Louie
We can look at it at multiple levels, right? Like academia more broadly. When I think about academia and race, I'm like, “Oh God, everything happening around affirmative action is so messy and complicated and ultimately,” I mean, this could be a whole other episode, but I think there are a lot of ways that Asian Americans have felt invisible in broader society as well as in academia, both hyper visible and invisible.
And if we take the affirmative action example, and many people much smarter than me have written and thought about this for a lot longer, but a lot of that invisibility has been misguided and even appropriated by conservative white interests to dismantle policies like affirmative action, which historically have helped us access these institutions by painting these very, again, anti-Black narratives that depend on model minority tropes.
And so I think that conversation is happening in academia. For myself as a graduate student, I don't know, honestly. I think for me, I just finished my third year in a doctoral program – and I think I think this happens to everyone – but the more I go in it and continue and progress, the more disillusioned I become and the more I think about how in the end, you know, you set up the offices for DEI. You even recruit faculty of color, but systems for tenure and systems for leadership and how decision making happens are all the same.
And they're all the same people; they’re all mostly old white men who have given lots of money to these institutions are the ones who make sure Asians and those decisions matter because they shape the actual lived experiences of students from the day to day in terms of what kind of faculty they have access to, what departments they have access to. So there's, for example, humanities is often underfunded, and on top of that, ethnic studies is even more so underfunded. And I would say many universities are under attack as well. And that to me is not disconnected from the larger ways that education is getting politicized on the K-12 level as well with CRT and book bans and all this stuff.
And so again – I'm going on a tangent now – being Asian American in the midst of all of this, I have been thinking about, what kind of communities and what kind of liberation do I want to invest in? Do I want to just keep succeeding in climbing the ladder and trying to get to a place in the system and eventually become tenured, which the chances are so, so low, honestly. Or what does it look like for me to be in the system but create imaginary spaces where students and myself can feel safer and more liberated and we can actually get back to the beautiful parts of academia, which is learning and exchanging ideas and challenging and transforming each other, right? So yeah, those are some of the questions I've been thinking about.
Patrick Armstrong
Thank you so much for sharing that. So before we kind of broach more broadly outside of our community, is there a way for us as Asian Americans, maybe not to infiltrate these spaces, because I feel like that's kind of what you have already done and you're like, “I don't know if I want to be here.” Is there a way for us to combat that where it's…Okay, I guess the question is, do we need to build our own systems that stand apart from these things, or do we go in, dismantle from the inside and build anew on top of the rubble of white supremacy?
Bianca Mabute-Louie
Yeah, that's like the million dollar question. And I think, you know, it's not to me, it's not a binary.
We have to be everything everywhere all at once. Just collectively. I think for me, on an individual level, I also know we exist in capitalism. I need to eat, I need to have stable sources of income, and that means participating in a lot of these institutions. And at the same time, I think that, you know, bell hooks wrote a lot about this, that the classroom remains a space of possibilities in a system that has relied often on dehumanization and exploitation of people.
And so we have to hold the two, intention, and I think everyone has to figure out for themselves what kind of spaces of influence they want to create or infiltrate. I will say before my life as an educator, I actually worked in an evangelical Christian ministry for a long time, and I was like, you know, “infiltrate from the inside, try to make changes inside.” And it honestly kind of destroyed my soul. I feel like I'm, and maybe that's some people's callings, but I think that in that particular context it was just so homophobic and there were so many power structures in place that felt so toxic that I feel like I lost my self and my sanity, my sense of how I even knew how to care for myself because I was so stubborn and adamant about trying to, like, change these certain policies within this organization and out.
Patrick Armstrong
Yeah, absolutely. And I think in those situations too, you see, sometimes, the impact of your work or the work that you're doing. And you know, it's really fulfilling and it's uplifting, but it blinds you to the fact that you are not taking care of yourself, like you can't give back to yourself in order to then fully show up day after day after day in that space.
So recognizing that being aware of that, I think is super powerful. Was that experience that pushed you into sociology, specifically, or were you already on the track to like, “this is where I want to go, this is what I want to study, this is what I want to pursue.”?
Bianca Mabute-Louie
I think it pushed me into it accidentally because I just needed something to do next. So I was leaving that position and kind of accidentally fell into this Asian American studies master's program at San Francisco State. And through there I got exposed to teaching and teaching in the classroom and realizing, “Oh, I really love doing this.” And I do.
I will say that whole experience with the evangelical ministry does shape a lot of my research because a lot of my work now is on how religion and particularly conservative religious spaces, spaces like evangelicals, Asian ethnic churches shape how Asian Americans understand themselves, racial categories, racial boundaries.
Patrick Armstrong
Thank you so much for sharing that. I think it all wraps nicely into only made out nicely. But one of the things that really drew me to your work originally, and I kind of mentioned it at the top, was the way that you talked about how we are doing this work together, not with just the multiple communities that make up the Asian diaspora, but across all historically marginalized communities.
And like that's where real progress can be made as opposed to being so hyper focused on just our one lane understanding that, ‘Oh, we cross over, we intersect with these other communities in multiple ways.” How do other, specifically BIPOC communities work with us to address these hidden or missing pieces of the conversation that we're talking about right now?
Because I think that we also, as Asian Americans or as part of the Asian diaspora, have to be willing to engage and work with other communities, too. So there's a lot of it on our end. How do those other communities maybe not reciprocate, but how do they work with us? What do they need to be or what can they be aware of as they approach this conversation?
Bianca Mabute-Louie
Yeah, well, I don't have a prescription for how [laughs] but I can share some experiences when I have felt supported by non-Asian BIPOC folks.
I actually did a session maybe six months ago, in the latter half of last year, at a very fancy corporate setting. So I share that because I didn't expect it to come out of that organization or that business, but they wanted to do a Black and Asian healing town hall. That the program was initiated by a Black woman at that organization. And one, it was striking to me that it wasn't happening during AAPI month or Black History Month. It's like, “Oh yeah, we exist in other months.” [laughs]
Patrick Armstrong
You had to look at your calendar, like, “wait a second it’s September or whatever” like, “what's happening?” [laughs]
Bianca Mabute-Louie
Exactly.
And it wasn't happening on the heels of some horrific tragedy. And two, they were very intentional about bringing in speakers from both communities to facilitate spaces for folks who identify as either group and then also to facilitate space for all of us to come together and really exchange stories, talk about history. They brought me and another sociologist in to give just some background framing of “why do we see tension between these communities, supposedly tension,” right? And how it's framed often by history and policy and structures, but how it manifests in the day to day and the interpersonal.
And so there are a lot of ways that that event surprised me in terms of the thoughtfulness and intention to facilitate healing and again, this is a very micro example. It was in one workplace, no policy change, reparations weren't made, you know, like really maybe nothing drastic happened.
But I feel like for me, I mean, it was even part of my own healing. I do like to see that people wanted to engage in this way. And Black folks in particular wanted to hear about Asian American experiences of racism and discrimination and also address the hard stuff like anti-blackness in our communities. And for me to also share things about anti-Asian sentiment in their community and where that comes from, how a lot of that often comes from family members who are in military, who were suited to fight imperialist wars for this country and in the process were fed very dehumanizing messages of Asians, right? All this stuff. It was just like so kind of magically coming together to help us all gain more insight, and I think show empathy and commitment to solidarity with each other.
So that's just one example that I felt really encouraged by. But I think beyond that, I try to think about partnership and mutuality as opposed to transactional solidarity, where it's like, “I show up for you, you show up for me.” I reposted this thing: to build coalitions does require relationships. It's relationships, right, that accumulates into bigger shifts in power and influence. It's a lot of what Adrienne Marie Brown talks about, starting small in the micro and in the local. And so I try to think about, again, grounding all of this work in relationships with people who are committed to similar ideals outside of my community.
Patrick Armstrong
I really appreciate you sharing that, both examples, but specifically that latter one, because this conversation is going to be the wrap up of the series. And the initial conversation I had with Liz Kleinrock was exactly about that, about relationships. How do we build relationships together that can then lead us to do better, stronger, more meaningful, deeper, more impactful work, I guess. I don't know. I used so many describing adjectives there. [laughs]
So I think it's really interesting. What things do you notice or do you look for when trying to build those deeper relationships across communities? Are there any specific things that you're like, “Oh, now I know that this is taking the next step.” You said we're working in the micro, but is there anything in particular that stands out to you as like, “this is the relationship that I want to carry forward” or is it purely kind of an alignment basis like “we are both have the same ideas, the same goals in our purview and like this is how we're going to start this off.”
Bianca Mabute-Louie
That's a good question. I think a lot of it is intuitive, not to reduce it to that, but I will say I'm kind of in the midst of it now, I think, having relocated. I've been here for a few years now, but I mean, making friends as an adult is really hard. [laughs]
Patrick Armstrong
My wife and I talk about that all the time, that adulting is so hard. [laughs]
Bianca Mabute-Louie
Yeah! We could have a whole podcast about that. Like, especially if you move or you change life stages. And so I moved. I'm about to become a parent, and so I'm kind of in the midst of it now where I'm trying to figure out, you know, what is my community here in Houston locally and also what is my political home? Because I feel like I need both to do the work I want to do, and for the work to not just stay in my head, but to actually be embodied in a way.
So one way I’ve tried to start doing that in the last year is just going to events locally and trying to meet people. And one way I actually met a lot of folks that I really respect and I try to keep in touch with and connect with is, there was a “year after Atlanta” vigil that happened that was honestly really weird. It was like a lot of applauding the police. It was very kind of…it wasn't what I expected. Right?
So I took to Twitter and I was like, “was anyone else at this event super uncomfortable?” [laughs] Something along those lines. And it was like a desperate call out for progressive, more abolitionist-thinking community in Houston. And actually, some people responded. And from there it kind of just iterated itself into a book group. We have a Houston Asian abolitionist group chat where people share events or what they're doing or opportunities to be plugged in. And so I think, you know, it's very slow, it's very organic. It's as much as people can give at any given time.
But just again, intentional ways like that to try to make connections in my community.
Patrick Armstrong
I love that, especially at the local level. And again, adulting is very difficult, especially when it comes to developing those new friendships. Like our Asian adoptee group here in Indianapolis started coming out of a vigil for Atlanta. specifically.
Bianca Mabute-Louie
Wow.
Patrick Armstrong
And luckily that one was not praising the police or like, it didn't have any of those weird vibes, but it was one of the first times that I realized, “Oh, there are a lot of other people like me here who have a similar shared lived experience,” maybe not think the same way or whatever it might be, and to see how slowly that group has come together.
Now seeing one person join this week or another person joining this week and sharing their stories for the first time, you know, it means a lot to just be able to build that relationship, not just with another human being, but someone who literally geographically sits in that same spot, who understands a little bit more of the nuance of what it means to be an adopted Asian in Indiana specifically.
As far as community goes, who right now is inspiring you? They don't have to be part of the community. But who are people right now that you're taking a lot of inspiration from or whose work is just really resonating with you?
Bianca Mabute-Louie
Hmm. I read a book a few months ago called Care Work by Leah Lakshmi – I'm totally going to butcher their name – but it's Care Work: Dreaming Disability Justice. First name is Leah, and I think that book, I finished it in, maybe January, but I still think about it multiple months later. But they are a queer South Asian disability justice activist and writer. And I think as I think about all of these things – Asian-American politics and identity and community building – I think that book in particular has really shaped and challenged my thinking about what it means to care for each other versus to dispose of each other.
I think even in activist communities or organizing spaces, we often resort to this politic of disposability where it's like, if you don't have the right language or you can't offer anything to me tangibly, you're kind of seen as less valuable. I've seen and witnessed that and experienced that in my time in these spaces, and I think the book really challenged me through, again, a disability justice lens, to think about how we inherently really need each other and we have something to learn from each other. And nobody is disposable. Like obviously nobody's disposable.
But again, the way that capitalism infiltrates our spaces right? It's just challenged my thinking around that. And also thinking about care work and how care work is, I think because it's seen as feminine labor, it's so undervalued, undercompensated in this country. And I'm about to again, become a parent, be caretaking and taking time off from my paid work for a while to be caretaking. And so I'm just again thinking about what it means to have a community doing that together, what it means for this kind of work to be undervalued but have always kind of fell on the backs of women of color in this country.
And so, yeah, that book has inspired a lot of different rabbit holes for me.
Patrick Armstrong
Well, we're going to link that in the show notes, and I'm going to be picking up a copy of that because that's that idea of disposability. I think it's super interesting. I never heard that before, and now I'm thinking about that a lot because I feel like I've been going through.
I feel like I'm seeing that a lot recently just in some of the spaces that I've been where it does feel very transactional. Like “if you can't give me this than you, I'm not going to include you in this” or “I'm not going to feel like you're worth the time to have a conversation” when at the end of the day, I totally agree with you. The only way we can do this work is together, and the people who are doing the work also deserve to be able to take the time to themselves when life happens and know that “I'm stepping away from the work and it's still going on, like there are still people who are doing it.”
That's other parts of the conversation we're missing, like the people who have already done the work and then the people who are currently doing it and building off of the foundations that have already been laid for us in order for us to be able to fight for the things that we're fighting for. So I really appreciate that and we will definitely link that there in the show notes.
Okay. So I have two more questions for you as we kind of wind it down here. The first one being I've asked everybody this and I feel like all the answers have been pretty similar, but people feel a lot of different ways about Heritage Months. Some people celebrate them, some people don't. I've written a lot about this, and I wanted to ask if you do celebrate or you don't celebrate Asian Pacific American Heritage Month and if you feel comfortable enough sharing, why or why not, I’d love to hear.
Bianca Mabute-Louie
It doesn't feel like a celebration to me. [laughs] Because it's the time when people are always wanting things from other people. If you're kind of a public-facing person or creator or whatever, I also feel like every month is, I don't know, every month, every day of the year is Asian American Heritage Month, right?
So I think honestly, in terms of celebrating, I mean, one thing I'm trying to do in this season, in general, of my life, preparing for this transition, is to say no to things and opt out of things and take a lot of naps and nest and rest and just take care of myself. Very different from the last few years where I was trying to take on a lot of speaking engagements and I was like, “This is my time to hustle, because suddenly the white gaze cares about us,” right?
And I, you know, I think there will be a time for that maybe later down the road if I should engage in that way. But I think for right now, I'm just really feeling the need to actually kind of turn inward and, I don't know, just take care of my own self and community.
Patrick Armstrong
Absolutely. “Nest and Rest: A Book About Self-Care” I think is a really good book title as well. [laughs] I have to steal that.
Anything specific giving you joy right now, just from a communal sense or just in the work that you're doing or maybe in your personal life? I guess you don't have to get personal. [laughs]
Bianca Mabute-Louie
My life is a lot about, just because I have a baby coming in like less than two months, preparing for that. And so I think one thing giving me joy, but also challenging me, is all the people who have kind of come around us to support this transition. And again, really recognizing I mean, right now it's kind of theoretical because the baby isn't here yet, but already kind of recognizing it's going to take a lot, it's going to take a village.
And that's sure to be in a lot of our cultures and communities. We weren't meant to raise children in these isolated, individualist, nuclear families. And so I feel very thankful that we have extended family and people around us. And they also feel challenged because it's very hard for me to ask for help and to, you know, I believe that we're all interconnected and we all need each other. I believe those things that, when it comes to my life, it's very hard to actually practice that.
Patrick Armstrong
Totally, totally resonate with that. And I love that about “taking the village to” when it comes to raising your children. I remember when I first read Britt Hawthorne's book, Raising Anti-Racist Children, and that's one of the first things she talks about is how she transitioned to homeschool. And why it's not just her and her partner doing this, learning and leading this in terms of care, but it's all of her community, like the community that she's surrounded and found herself in, which I love and and I love that you name that as well.
How do we support you? How do we support your work and the things that you're doing moving forward, knowing that you're going to be, you know, taking a lot of care and time to yourself and spending that with your family – anything that we can do specifically to support you moving forward?
Bianca Mabute-Louie
Thank you for asking that. I'm kind of just preparing myself to enter this, like, hibernation mode. [laughs] And so I don't have any, honestly, that much like work coming out in the next six months that people can be reading. Let's stay in community. If people want to talk about these things, like what it looks like to make community around our shared values, how to make friends as an adult, I'm always willing to have those conversations.
But yeah, I mean, otherwise I’m just thankful for the space and conversation and I think how I feel supported is just knowing that, like you said, this work continues to happen. I'm just one small piece of a much larger tapestry working on all these things and telling stories.
Patrick Armstrong
I love that. Thank you for saying that and sharing that. And folks, get out there and keep doing the work so Bianca can spend time with her family and be a parent, rest, nest and do all of that wonderful self-care and family care that we need to have happen.
Bianca, it's been an absolute pleasure and a privilege to sit here and have this conversation with you, to take a little bit of your time today to be able to share this conversation with our guests, it really, really means a lot to me, not only to have you on the show, but to be a part of this specific series of conversations. So thank you so much.
Bianca Mabute-Louie
Thank you so much, Patrick. This is so fun. And I'm looking forward to listening to all of your episodes.
Patrick Armstrong
Thank you so much. That is making me beam and smile and warming me inside. Thank you. That really, really, really means a lot. Everybody else out there listening, you can find links to everything that we've talked about here in the show notes and you can find us at Conversation Pod Piece on Instagram. If you do feel inclined to leave a rating or review on whatever podcast player you're listening to, we would greatly appreciate it. And if you're interested in supporting the show in the future in any way, feel free to hop in my DMs or visit my website: Patrick in the World dot me.
Until next time. I'm Patrick Armstrong and this has been Conversation Piece. Thanks, Bianca.
Bianca Mabute-Louie
Thank you.